Talk:Church (building)

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Older messages[edit]

What I miss here is a distinction between religion/belief (which can be a private matter, or at least a loosely organized one) and church life (which is by definition a social and well-organized matter). I don't know if this should be within Religion or Church or within the description of each specific religion, e.g. Christianity.

It struck me that there is no entry on Sermon or even Liturgy. Some other acts or events of church life are probably also missing. The entry on Christianity is preoccupied with various branches of the Christian church, and almost only that.

The page on Prayer starts with "Prayer is the religious act of communicating with ...". Would it make sense to create an entry on religious act? That would make it easy just to link those words already there in the Prayer article.

(BTW, isn't Church Talk the name of a Saturday Night Live sketch? :-) No, sorry, that is Church Lady, of course.)

You raise some good points, whoever you are. :-) Whether Christian religion/belief can be a private matter depends on your particular ecclesiology, or theology of the church. There many people that say it can be private, and many who say it can't. I think the Church article doesn't need to focus much on individual belief, since, well, it's about churches. Sermon and Liturgy could certainly use articles. In fact, there could easily be articles for Eastern Orthodox liturgy, Catholic Latin Rite liturgy, Catholic Eastern Rite liturgy, and others.
Do you think that the Christianity article's material on the different branches should be moved to a subtopic so it doesn't distract as much from any other material there? Wesley

mystery and morality plays were a big attraction to early churches and plays a large part of much of today's theatrical rocking evangelical churches today. theater church and drama are very much linked esp. if you've visited a high mass lately. I'm interested in hearing the relation can be so easily shunt aside...dgd

morality plays didn't show up until sometime in the Middle Ages, after the Church had been around for over 1,000 years. Yes, theatre and drama appear to play a role in some evangelical churches; haven't visited a high mass lately, so I don't know about that. But it doesn't play a role in every church everywhere, or even in most churches, especially over the last 2,000 year span. Listing them generically implies that it does. Perhaps more specific mention could be made of the role drama does play and has played historically; I just want the scope to be clearly delineated. Wesley
You seem more emotionally attached to this subject Wesley. why don't you find a way to work in the history of theater in the church. Consider as well the greek church/ theater connection as well. cheers. dgd
This is an interesting angle. It brings to my mind the roots of opera in the oratorio, and the links between oratorio and the sacred music and liturgical chant of the Mass. However, although I know mystery and morality plays were a big attraction to early Christians, I think that there is a difference there, between early Christians and early churches. Half a dozen vaguely remembered homilies come to mind, from Chrysostom and others, which put a great distance between Christian attitudes toward theater, and the Church's attitude toward it. Mkmcconn
Yes, you're right about the slant about early Christians. The idea though that keeps eating at me are the big Nativity and Easter plays that people in the Bible Belt of the United States swarm too, this is definitely Religious Drama or Religious Theater and it's taking places in large churches throughout the world. The Easter plays on google [Society > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity > Arts > Performing Arts ] is long and certainly points to the use of American churches to use entertainment as a vehicle for proselytizing (sp?) and deserves mention so as to better understand the phenomenon and origins of Religion of pre and post Puritanical america.-- User:DennisDaniels
You're onto something important, there. Even the liturgical renewal movement seems to have aesthetics and drama at the center of why traditional forms need to be recovered. From bible-belt Passion plays to [Hell House ], there is a definite tie-in with theater in modern ideas of "church". I've visited evangelical churches that have nothing recognizably churchy about them - pure entertainment (movies, football games, mime, concerts, just about anything but rites or sermons) - and it's quite intentional; and I've heard that similar things are happening in trendy Roman catholic churches although I have no experience with that. Personally, it's repugnant. But, it is fact that this is happening and, it's not a fringe phenomenon. Mkmcconn But there is no pope in a church

It is true that western theater has roots in part in ecclesiastical drama, but is it necessary to include this information in this article? A brief mention with a link to a larger article would be more useful. For what it's worth some day, real soon now, I will be working on a Medieval Drama or Medieval Theater page. David Stapleton 11:48, 13 Oct 2003 (UTC)

True. I think a lot of it is done in the name of being "seeker friendly", and "culturally relevant"; a couple of flagship evangelical churches that get mentioned a lot in connection with this are Willow Creek in Chicago and Saddleback, I think somewhere in Ohio. I forget their full names. I think it's also one product of a lot of the "church growth" sociological studies done in the last few decades. These studies examine a range of parishes and try to correlate sociological and demographic factors with the rate of church growth (or decline). When they find a correlation, they then try to duplicate that church growth by duplicating the sociological and demographic factors. You see something vaguely similar being done when the Salvation Army denomination was founded, in their use of brass bands and avoidance of baptism and communion, for generally similar reasons.

Perhaps this topic should be written up as a subsection of the Church article, both to deal with it in greater detail and also to place it in its historical context. Wesley

I removed the word 'sanctuary' from the first definition of a church, because in Eastern Orthodoxy, 'sanctuary' refers very specifically to the area behind the iconostasis around the altar, and not to the entire building. I'd rather keep the definitions in the beginning as simple and general as possible, rather than discuss the many nuances and usages in different Christian traditions. Is that alright with everyone? Wesley

I'd love to write a little piece on Religious Drama to cover some of this, but a) it will have to be from the Christian viewpoint only and b) I won't get time to add much to it for a week or two. Have to look out some reference books. I'll add some stubs. DJ Clayworth 15:24, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

To those who care, I changed "Used by those in Christendom" to "Used in Christian theology" in the introduction because the word Christendom traditionally caries with it a connotation of being those regions where the Christian religion holds secular power as well as spiritual influence, and the word Church is used in this sense in pretty much all of Christian theology, not merely by those who live in what remains of what once was Christendom. Shimmin 04:02, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Removed: "Church" is the Latin word for "congregation" or "assembly." This is a false claim; in fact, the word "church" comes to English and other languages ultimately from the Greek kriakon doma meaning "house of the Lord" according to the American Heritage Dictionary.

Any support for the following statement, either reference or example of a fertility god whose temple used a spire or spires? Another common feature is the spire, taken from the model of ancient temples of fertility gods and goddesses. Wesley 16:11, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Church Spires[edit]

Another common feature is the spire, taken from the model of ancient temples of fertility gods and goddesses.

I do not think that this statement can be supported. Early christian basillicas such as Old St. Peters and Santa Constanza, both in Rome and Sant' Apollinaire in Classe, in Ravenna do not have spires. Towers did not begin to apear until hundreds of years later. The tradition of the "Westwork" began in the 9th century, and became firmly established in the Romanesque and Gothic period. The spire over the crossing is mostly an English Gothic thing. By these late dates there were no "ancient temples of fertility gods and goddesses" around to serve as models.

I am deleting the clause beginning with "taken". David Stapleton 11:09, 13 Oct 2003 (UTC)

bless store[edit]

you can add my book store look in

This article quotes the christian bible as history? JesusCantSave

Actually, whether you believe that Jesus can save or no, the Bible is a historical document and is supported by several other historical documents. Ancient Near Eastern literature from many different nations is helpful in determining the truth of history.

Caption needs work[edit]

The caption of the illustration needs attention. If a church can be a Christian building of worship then it also can not be a Christian building of worship. Moriori 07:50, Mar 4, 2004 (UTC)


Some interesting bit of trivia: "traditional" French protestant churches (i.e. those installed early on, as opposed to Christian denominations imported in the 19th or 20th centuries from the United States) call their places of worship "temple", not churches; I think that the idea was to distinguish themselves from the Roman Catholic Church. Similarly, they don't say messe (mass), but office. David.Monniaux 16:19, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Church furnishings: no article, no category, nothing here either[edit]

Thwere is a wide term covering a lot, I can't tell exactly where it stops, and esseential for understanding a church: church furnishings. It hasn't got an article, nor a category, and here, where it certainly also belongs, it's not even mentioned.

For the definition, this website can be useful as a start, even if it's not RS. For more see "Category:Sacramentals", "Category:Christian religious objects", maybe more I can't think of (one leads to the next). Several other necessary/useful red links came up while putting together the list, which deserve at least a redirect.

I'm attempting at putting together a list of what is, and what possibly is, covered by the term. The term must be given its own article and category, and at least linked to this article too. Think of a redirect for now.

Part of "church furnishings"

Ambon (liturgy), Stations of the Cross, baptismal font, crosses of all kinds (rood, crucifix), candle holder, altarpiece, baptismal font, chalice#Christian, paten, monstrance.

Curch furniture: pew, kneeler, confessional.

Church supplies can also be useful as a term (either redirect, article, or category).

Probably also part of "church furnishings"

Iconostasis, chancel screen (see templon), royal doors, altar#Christianity, pulpit, lectern#Christian, etc.

Paraments, including decorative textile coverings as well as vestments (there's a whole set of articles on those) - see altar cloth, antimins. Arminden (talk) 10:08, 22 October 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

As far as categories are concerned I think this is covered by Category:Christian religious furniture (a subcategory of Category:Christian religious objects), but I agree the existing articles concentrate more on the buildings themselves rather than their contents. I'd be astonished if there aren't numerous books and other reliable sources that cover the interior design and furnishings of Christian religious spaces, so I'm confident such an article would be notable in its own right. WaggersTALK 13:04, 28 October 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]